Our City, Our Podcast

Announcer 00:04
We know our services and programs impact you, so let’s talk about them. Together, we’ll learn from the people behind the scenes and get to know our city a little better. From the city of Winnipeg, this is Our City, Our Podcast.

Rachel 00:15
This podcast is recorded in Treaty 1 Territory, the home and traditional lands of the Anishinaabe, Ininew, and Dakota peoples, and in the national homeland of the Red River Metis. We acknowledge that our drinking water comes from Shoal Lake 40 First Nation in Treaty 3 Territory.

Natalie 00:33
Hi, I'm Natalie.

Rachel 00:36
And I'm Rachel. And this is our city, our podcast.

Today, we're gonna take a little trip through Recyclepedia and talk all things recycling. Natalie, do you know if you can recycle plastic drink cups and disposable coffee cups?

Natalie 00:49
Plastic cups and coffee like a Tim Hortons?

Rachel 00:52
Yeah, yeah.

Natalie 00:52
I wanna say no to the latter. And I don’t know
about the first one.

Rachel 00:59
According to Recyclepedia, you can't recycle either of those things and said you should just try to use a reusable option if you're grabbing a drink out.

Natalie 01:08
Ohh, OK what about like a plastic clamshell like the ones where you put grapes in or tomatoes on the vine.

Rachel 01:19
Actually, according to Recyclepedia, you can recycle those, but you cannot recycle the takeout containers like the like the clamshells where you get takeout food.

Natalie 01:28
Got it.
Well, hey, this is this is a great way to get into our our interview today. We're going to talk to Mark Kinsley, the Superintendent of Waste Diversion.

Rachel 01:36
He is also an enthusiast about all things recycling.

Natalie 01:40
And you know who needs recyclepedia when you got the expert right here.

Rachel 01:42
Absolutely.

Natalie 01:45
Well, thanks for speaking with us today Mark. Now I understand you've been in the business of recycling for pretty good chunk of your career.

Mark 01:52
Yeah, glad to be here. I've been in Waste Diversion for just over 15 years, so I've seen a little bit of everything, but there's always something to learn and to to, you know, help people do best they can to recycle and and keep things out of the landfill.

Natalie 02:09
And tell us where what was your first job at the city?

Mark 02:12
I actually started as a student in public works and then got on with the Solid Waste Services division, monitoring landfills and then tried to stay with them and just couldn't get a permanent job. So I went to consulting for a few years and then got back into the landfills monitoring and then thankfully got into my passion of waste diversion 15 years ago.

Rachel 02:41
Great. So tell us a little bit about your job now. What would you tell your neighbor about what you do for a living?

Mark 02:47
Yeah, it's a little bit of everything with waste diversion. There is a focus on contract administration for the where everything ends up so that the sorting facility which is run by a company, but my group make sure that you know things run smooth and that we're always trying to get the best quality of material and then the best return on when we send it out to get to to make new products and then I'm also responsible for the 4R Winnipeg depots which we like to call one stop shop where you can take other materials beyond just your blue card recyclables. So that's got three locations. The main one that our Brady Road resource recovery facility and then two others on Panet Road and Pacific and and they have a lot of stuff, a lot of things happening and quite a few more staff.

Natalie 03:51
OK, now I have to ask you. What is some of the more bizarre things you've seen come through our recycling program?

Mark 03:57
We could go around the table and you could name something and we've probably seen it, but for me, the bowling balls is one that you know. I like to think that I don't need to scratch my head anymore and be surprised, but that one is a good one.

Natalie 04:16
No, folks, they're not recyclable.

Mark 04:18
Yeah. Thank you.

Rachel 04:19
People still own their own bowling balls. Interesting. I guess not that that person.

Mark 04:23
I wouldn't say my wife's grandpa. It's got its own like carrying case like it's beautiful. And then another weird one and see a lot of his diapers, which I'll just give a quick back story, is that in Toronto they have a program where you can recycle them because they take the contents and then they can do a separation. So a lot of what happens with our with weird stuff like that as people think that it's like a either the same program somewhere else or like a thrift store type of thing. So it's like I'll give it to you and then you guys will figure it out.

But the main importance, which will probably keep coming back to and which I do in any of my correspondences that you have to know Winnipeg’s acceptable list because it's not the same as Toronto. It's not the same as Vancouver. It's a little bit different. They're trying to make it the same nationally, but there's a lot of work to do on that. So we keep seeing weird things and we're just trying to to push that message that know Winnipeg's acceptable list because that's the way the programs are designed.

Rachel 05:33
Despite that, I understand recycling materials coming out of Winnipeg are consistently in demand thanks in no small part to some updates that have been made to the way we sort our recyclables. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Mark 05:44
Yeah, we've got pretty lucky in Winnipeg based on how our contracts that are last contract came to its end and we needed a new facility that happened at the end of 2019. Subsequently, there was a big change in the industry. China used to take a lot more material. They stopped between 2017 and 2019, so we had some hard times there and then moved into the new facility and just with anything like new technology, they put in state of the art equipment and it just produces very high quality because the whole goal is to make sure that there's the least amount of contamination, which means anything other than the marketed commodity. So for example, pop bottles you don't want milk jugs in there or anything else, so the least amount of contamination you have, the better. And the facility that Winnipeg has now is produces high quality on consistent basis. So therefore the markets know that Winnipeg's gonna give them good material, and there's a 13 commodities. So many there's groups of paper, plastic, metal and glass.

Natalie 07:10
So and if materials aren't going to China anymore, where where are they heading?

Mark 07:14
So again the the it's all about quality. So no matter where you where you are. North America can't accept a lot of material, but it has to be that high quality. India takes kind of some of the lower quality because they just need that much more. They have more manufacturing, but for the Winnipeg material it is staying in North America because of that high quality.

Rachel 07:45
I have been to it 4R depot, I'm sure many listeners have been as well. Can you take us on a little descriptive tour of the new materials recovery facility? I haven't seen it. So yeah, it sounds like some of the technology is pretty high tech.

Mark 08:00
Yeah, it's really neat. The Materials recovery facility, MRF, for short in Winnipeg, has the latest technology which is near infrared optical sorters and that system fancy name. But it uses light reflection based on how they programmed the computer system in the machine that it knows it's looking for the program material. So for example, I’ll use pop bottles again, it uses the light and it's always shining on the conveyor belt as the material goes by and we gets a positive reflection back. Knowing what what the material is and uses air within less than a foot for the belt to shoot it and separated from everything else, so quite amazing and it's happening like so fast it it. It's mind-blowing.
And then they can use to them for many things even paper, other types of plastic. Again, it's all about the program of the computer system and each thing and our facility has seven optical sorters.
Another interesting uh piece of equipment which is still there. They're they're working on a lot of kinks in every company, every facility, but they are using robotics, which has like an articulating arm. And again, they can program the computer to be looking forward and actually uses AI and it's always scanning and and learning and can actually communicate with other robotic arms within the company.
So what the example that GFL gave us when they put the one in Winnipeg is that their first one was in Pittsburgh. So the Winnipeg one could communicate with the one in Pittsburgh. Just learning, the different shapes and how a build choke can be, you know, in in many different states of being squished.
So it's stuff like that.
It's learning about, I don't want that stuff so, but it's it's limited in the sense that it uses suction and there's it's so fast and and the impact it affects the the ability of it. But it's neat technology and everybody's given it to give it a try. So it's still a work in progress.

Natalie 10:21
Fascinating. Well, you know, this maybe is a good chance as any to jump in with a misconception that might be out there. I've heard it and it's the concern that items that start in the blue box might end up in the landfill anyways.

Mark 10:37
That is a sad misconception, and I hear it all the time, and I've heard it my whole career and I think unfortunately what people may see is that there and over the years, there's the trucks have also kind of changed a little bit and in their technology and the look of them. But at the same time, they're very similar. Whether it's a recycling truck or a garbage truck, and I think some people see that truck passing, you know, you have the same material collected on the same story, garbling second click on the same day. So I think that's part of the misconception that people see the same truck. Umm, but when I talk to people, I just say why would we go through all the trouble?
And once we have more information to provide, whether it be videos and whatnot, to show the the sorting facility, I think that'll help. So that should be coming out soon.
But yeah, that one, you know, without obviously being biased. Or am I? I'm trying hard my hardest to get rid of that misconception because it makes a big difference. Uh, we want more recycling to come out. There's still quite a bit and not making its way into our program, and again, Winnipeg, we're lucky that we have or do for facility. So it is producing high quality and it's going to be made into new products and all the stuff we need

Natalie 12:07
To confirm you know it it's like you all to hear make the commodity prices changed. Plastic is too cheap and that's why we toss it. But that's not the case.

Mark 12:16
I mean, it does fluctuate a lot and that's a good, good point. People know that there there's a long process. There are a lot of costs involved, but Winnipeg is completely committed, uh, and the way our contract is structured, we we don't worry about the market. We hope that we can always generate well, get the highest return, but we're committed to the long term in that if when it goes down we just right that go with that and then when it gets up you know that's great. So we structure our budgets so that we can for the for the most part as best we can handle those ups and downs. But that definitely happens and but since our facility new facility has been open, we've been on more of a high. So that's been nice.

Rachel 13:10
Maybe outing myself as a bit of a pizza eater here, but I hope I'm sure other people have this question too, but when you have a pizza box with a grease stain, can you throw it in the recycling? I never know what to do.

Mark 13:24
You can and I'm with you. Pizza rules. That's another one that I think people get confused a bit because there are there are programs that in other municipalities that say no pizza boxes, which really surprises me. And I I wanna think that that's gonna not happen as much anymore, but that would be something that they've dealt with their their buyers. So what I tell people is that unless it's really, there's a lot and sometimes he gets some of those pizzas that that produce a lot of grease. Umm you can put the whole box in as long as you pull out that wax paper and the little table that everybody calls the doll table.

Natalie 14:10
I see you.

Mark 14:11
My kids used to call it the doll table. And if it is really greasy, then you can actually take another step and just separate that layer of the cardboard and you can actually compost if you have access to that. A whole other story I guess for Winnipeg. But yeah, that that's totally out there. And so the simple answer is yes recycle your pizza boxes, all of them.

Natalie 14:38
And this this comes back to what you were saying earlier, the communication challenge of what makes Winnipeg unique, but at the same time, there's some large prime time advertising campaigns about recycling and now is that you guys.

Mark 14:51
We do our fair share. Another thing I I feel like we're lucky in in Winnipeg is that we partner with, they're called the Canadian Beverage Container Recycling Association. They deal with beverage containers, which there's a lot of those out there, right? You see, we see them, you know, in our travels and all that. So they've they're they were introduced to really focus on that because a lot of that type of not making its way in because it's you know out in the public and it's less, I mean shouldn't say less at home. That's where they saw that there's all these materials out out. Uh, and having as much of a chance to get into a a recycling program. so they do a lot of advertising and they've actually.
Since their uh or in their history have moved really just focused on containers, they're their beverage containers and now they've at that they can we can all share and they say put everything because that's the way the Winnipeg system is. So when you see a recycle everywhere container that you're at a Jets game or, you know, at the gas station you can put everything in there because they know what's good for recycling. They they they're focus is their their material. Everything can go in, so that's another good thing. So they do a lot.
And then the stewardship organization MMSM, they do a lot. So we're always collaborating and just trying to, because there needs to be a lot of repetition. You know, there's there's products out there.
There's, there's a lot of, you know, best practice trying to, you know, let people know and and remind them, you know, rinse out your your container which didn't used to be a one of the uh, you know, make sure that enough is together call it nested so don't and inside of milk carton. Try and separate when a box has a plastic window for example. So stuff like that.
You know, I never blame people. There's a lot to know. There's a lot of stuff that you can't, and which is very similar to other things. So it's a good thing that we have a good kind of stakeholder group shares the responsibility of reminding people and educating them on what we wanna see.

Rachel 17:23
Speaking of educating, what are some of the big noes for putting in your blue box? What are some of things that you should absolutely not put in.

Mark 17:30
Yeah, plastic bags have stood the test of time for that answer, you know. And another example of like the history that we've gone through that we used to say put your newspapers and plastic bags when you used to have blue boxes. And that that way, the idea was to keep rain and moisture off. Well, now that we have carts, that's not necessary, but I think some people still hold on to that, that old habit. And then obviously bags, they contain things a little better still. Still, some people that like using the recyclable bags, the blue or the clear just cuz it's I guess clean for them and and and more convenient.
But what bags do is they clog up the machines. They get wrapped because there's a lot of, uh, other parts, parts of the technology that spins just for more separation. So yeah, we don't want to see any bags.
And if the sorters at the facility can't see what's inside, that automatically gets thrown away. So unfortunately you could have a bag full of cans or bottles, and if they can't see it because everything's moving very fast, they have to keep up with, you know so much per hour. So that's where we always asking people to empty it, whatever container they're using, whether it's a card at home, maybe a been at a multi unit location, loose everything loose, not in bags, use your bags for other stuff.
Another good example, Styrofoam, it's actually plastic, but because it's so light and you need so much of it to send away it's cost prohibitive. So that's another one where some other municipalities have that as part of their program and it's got usually has the number 4 Mobius loop on it, which is very confusing.
And so to bags. So that's, I'll always admit that's an unfair thing for people that no, if you see the triangle then you know why can't I put it in and you know, it's good to have these opportunities to explain that. Umm, that actually goes back to when they first started.
It was more about what type of plastic it was, so now they're trying to make changes within the industry to not have as many of those on products really think about what's the majority of programs accepting lists and then so it helps people learn that.

Natalie 20:08
And to send people off with a resource, Recyclepedia when you're in doubt.

Mark 20:13
It's amazing. Yeah. And that's something that actually MMSM shares with us. And so it's one thing, one search tool, you know, for the whole province. We actually had separate ones before, but in the last number of years we've shared that. So it's a really good tool.

Natalie 20:34
We can find that?

Mark 20:36
You can find on the winnipeg.ca. You could find it recycle everywhere many places, but Google Recyclepedia and it'll it should help you out.

Rachel 20:45
So for you, I would imagine a trip to the drink aisle in a grocery store is through a lens a lot of us don't think too much about. Like how when you're when you're deciding on what to bring into your home. How do you make decisions that create the lowest impact on the planet? Or how can like we as listeners do that?

Mark 21:07
Great question. A lot of how the sorting facility is designed is by size. So depending on for example it starts out with separating the cardboard and then it goes into paper and then the plastics.
So back to your question, if you think you're gonna consume more than a litre, let's say, why not get the bigger one and have less of the items? The number of items that you're gonna have. Another thing that I think about is that those optical sorters, they're, they're using that light and it's programmed on type of plastic. Well, unfortunately the labels are a different type of plastic, so the more surface area that you have with the the actual container, the bottle type, which is usually number one, is better for the optical to to make that connection. Umm so and then and then when you go and see the different label sizes some cover the whole bottle and just the neck is the is the number one part. So the opticals gotta hit that and it does, but it takes away the the, I guess accuracy and and stuff like that. So, umm, smaller labels is another good thing for cycling and the reason why companies do that is they they want to attract their their product. So they want your eye to be caught before anything else. So that's why they they switch that they used to be just kind of third of the the bottle. So I hope that there's going to be less of that. There's there's that type of those conversations happen and industry as well, where the recycling are saying to the to the suppliers and the manufacturers. Hey, we know you're doing it for that reason, but can you can we kind of compromise?
So that's another interesting thing that I don't think anybody would think about

Natalie 23:10
Fascinating.

Rachel 23:11
Interesting.

Natalie 23:12
And now you also you handle electronic recycling and at risk of sounding like somebody's dad, do you see that some items just aren't lasting like they used to? You hear this term planned obsolescence. So I'm so fascinated to hear you have to say.

Mark 23:29
Yeah, yeah, those sayings are there for a reason, right? I mean, it's hard not to think that. So we get, we still got a lot of those old tube TV's and a lot of the old stuff. But we are seeing a shift in a less of that type of stuff.
There's only so much out there, even though we're talking about 50s, TVs came out in the 50s. But we’re seeing a little bit less and less, but then that those are almost being replaced by flat screens which aren't that old, right? I know even that technology does go back, but to me it's a bit of a surprise that the amount of flat screen and newer type of technology that that we're seeing, I mean we want volume because we don't we know the whole concept is to get as much as we can so that it's not going to the landfill. But the same time, I think there is a bit of that. You know, we all want technology where you know, that's just the way things are now, but hopefully there's less of that. But I can't help but feel like that that does happen.
So I guess I'm the messages for people that just take care of your stuff. You know, I tell my mom that don't leave your TV on all the time because they do have a life span. You know, it's like 1000 hours or something like that, but little things like that, you know, make it last as long as you can, cuz yes, we're here with our programs to accept items and materials so that they can be reused in that. But I want everybody to always remember that the 3R's is reduced reuse or cycle and and the concept rate from the beginning was in that order. So that's what I think about.

Rachel 25:16
Definitely. Repair when you can.

Mark 25:17
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is either said than done, and then the whole don't wanna get into it that much, but cost of things like I get it. But yeah, we're just hoping people can make as much effort as they can right through the kind of life cycle of these materials. And then at the end, yeah, we'll take them and we'll do our best to recycle as much of it as we can.

Rachel 25:40
Yeah. So I know in January you folks see a lot of Christmas trees coming into the 4R depots. Are there any other seasonal trends you see in the items that come in?

Mark 25:50
Yeah, actually, in the springtime, there seems to be that that whole concept of spring cleaning. We see a lot of stuff good and not so good. Again, back to that. You know that you can take and deal with it. So again, back to the importance of knowing the city’s list. Not only curbside blue cart, but 4R Winnipeg Depot as well. There's a lot of items you can, but a lot of the items you can’t. We encourage people to learn about that. There's another kind of they called fall clean up. I don't know, but similar thing. I think the whole it a lot of things around like kids and what they're doing. So back to school, we see a bump.
There was a big spike during the pandemic and I think for obvious reasons that people were home and, you know, really like they've been meaning to clean up for years and you know that the basement and the garage kind of concept. So there was a spike there, which was good in a way that, you know that much more material got diverted and so it's come down since then and you know we wanna always see if we can maximize all year round. So we encourage people to do it as much as they can all the time.

Natalie 27:11
You know, we're kind of getting close to the end here, but I did want to touch on, you know, we all know recycling is not a new message. Most of our listeners grew up with that message that you've already mentioned reduce, reuse, recycle. I am interested in from the front lines here. How have you seen that message evolve?

Mark 27:32
I think it has had a good evolution in that just the conversations I have people they almost, you know kind of finish the sentence it's sometimes and I can see that they have learned and maybe it's a conversation they've already added me where I've put them on to a resource. You know I see more containers out there which is important that there's still some challenging and making sure that the how that stuff moves around and just the where you see it more the the advertising the promotional and educational information is out there more and more. So the more the merrier type of thing the.
And in general, just the mindset and the attitude of people of trying to think about the environment and think about, you know, climate change is a very hot topic. And I think it will be forever and there are connections, no doubt. So for example it’s a lot less energy to make a bottle out of our recycled content versus getting actually oil out of the ground. Yeah. So plastic does come from oil. I think we're on a good level and then there's always room for improvement, but it's really important for people to keep doing everything they can for waste diversion.

Rachel 29:17
Thank you so much Mark. Is there anything else you wanted to add before you leave us today?

Mark 29:23
Yeah, I mean I always like to remind people that they are making a difference. It means a lot as much as they can recycle. Again, focusing on Winnipeg’s acceptable list at the curbside at their home. When they come to the 4R Winnipeg depots and just do your best to make the decisions that can help that our whole process with our programs. You know back to the reduce, reuse, recycle. And thank you. Thank you for participating in our programs. It's doing a good job for Winnipeg and beyond and keep up the great work.

Natalie 30:03
Thanks again Mark. Ohh wait, one last question. Now it is something we ask everyone. It's a recycled question so I know you’ll appreciate it. We like to ask. We'd like you to share something about Winnipeg that you wish everyone do. It can be work related or you know it doesn't have to be.

Mark 30:24
The City of Winnipeg has one of the top ten recycling sorting facilities in North America and I'm really proud of that. Timing is a big thing, but you know we put a lot into that contract and to make sure that you know, we got as best we can. And so again, the more you can recycle, that's going to good place.

Natalie 30:47
Yeah, sorry. So top ten by what metric?

Mark 30:51
The quality of material that is getting sent for remanufacturing.

Rachel 30:56
Cool.

Natalie 30:57
Very cool.

Rachel 30:58
Way to go City of Winnipeg.

Natalie 31:00
Hold your heads high Winnipeg. Great. Thanks again Mark.

Rachel 31:03
Thanks.

Mark 31:04
You're very welcome. Thank you for having me.

Natalie 31:07
Join us next month when we connect with Kevin Sturgeon at Winnipeg Transit.

Rachel 31:11
We'll hop on a bus with him and talk about transit past, present and future.

Natalie31:15
And before we go out, we'd love to hear from our listeners. What programs and services impact you the most? Email us at city-podcast@winnipeg.ca with suggestions for future episodes. Thanks for listening.