Linda & Lana from Water & Waste
Download MP3We know our services and programs impact you, so let's talk about them. Together, we'll learn from the people behind the scenes and get to know our city a little better. From the city of Winnipeg, this is our city, our podcast.
Natalie:This podcast is recorded in Treaty 1 territory, the home and traditional lands of the Anishinaabe, Ininew, and Dakota peoples, and the national homeland of the Red River Metis. We acknowledge that our drinking water comes from Shoal Lake 40 First Nation in Treaty 3 territory.
Tamara:Thanks for joining us. I'm Tamara.
Natalie:And I'm Natalie. Today's episode, you know, really at the the base of it is is something pretty simple.
Tamara:That's right. We all go to the washroom, and most of us don't think about what happens next. But did you know that Winnipeg right now is home to one of the largest and most complex infrastructure projects, not just in Manitoba or Canada, but in all of North America?
Natalie:We are talking about upgrades to the North End Wastewater Treatment Plant. It's also known as the North End Waste Pollution Control Center. But in this episode, you're gonna hear us call it NewPic.
Tamara:Before we get started, we'll do a quick round of introductions so people know the name to the voice to the title.
Lana:Sure. I'm Lana Obach. I'm with the Citi, and I am the biosolids project manager. So we'll get into this later, but the second project, that's the one I'm I'm leading.
Linda:And I'm Linda McCusker. I'm the Winnipeg sewage treatment program project director.
Natalie:Linda, Lana, thank you so much for joining us. Before we get into just what those upgrades are, we first need to understand what happens at NEWPCC. And it really starts in the sinks and maybe, you know, a strange place to to start a conversation, but in the bathrooms as well.
Linda:Yeah. You're right. You know, whenever you flush the toilet or dump think something down your drain, it all actually eventually ends up at one of our three sewage treatment plants. So the first step is really getting the sewage there. Each residence, they would have a private line, which is owned by the property owner.
Linda:And it's actually this line is the responsibility of the homeowner. And the service line connects to a sewer main. So usually in front of your house, either in the boulevard or in the road. And here at the city, we have over a thousand kilometers of sewer sewer main. So the sewer main would then flow by gravity into one of our 75 lift stations.
Linda:And depending on where you are in the city, you know, we could either pump your sewage once or we could pump it dozens of times to eventually get to one of the interceptors. So the interceptors are these very large diameter pipes that eventually lead to one of the three sewage treatment plants.
Tamara:So just so we understand the layout of the pipes in Winnipeg, we're talking about just one of three wastewater treatment plants that service Winnipeg.
Linda:Yeah, that's correct. So Winnipeg has three wastewater treatment plants. We have the West end, we have the South end and the North end. So sewage treatment really is about separating out the liquid stream from the solid stream. So, once the liquid stream is treated, it's returned to the river.
Linda:And once the solids are treated, they're reused in various ways such as soil fabrication or land application. So we have already put a lot of money to upgrade our South End and West End plants. And together, the West End and South End can handle about 30% of the liquid streams. And at this point, they treat to a higher level than previously did. But they don't actually treat any of the solids.
Linda:So the solids produced by these plants are actually tracked all the way to the North End Treatment Plant. The North End is the oldest and biggest treatment plant, and it still needs to be upgraded. So it treats about 70% of our liquid wastewater, and like I said, a 100% of the solids. So essentially, all Winnipeg residents use North End in some capacity because it treats all the solids.
Natalie:Right. Okay. So you're making a a really clear case here about how critical New Pick is to Winnipeg. And and now we'll get into it. You know, it it needs some major work.
Natalie:Why why are we
Linda:upgrading and and why now? There's actually several reasons why we're gonna upgrade now. One is we have an environmental license, which we need to meet, and it's actually stricter than it was in the past. So currently, the North End infrastructure does not meet the license in certain certain capacity. Also, we need to keep up with Winnipeg's population growth.
Linda:So the NEWPCC can currently treat our current population, you know, we have capacity for that. But in the not so far future, we're going to run out of capacity due to population growth and also new industries that are coming in. Another factor is we have aging infrastructure. And some of it is over 90 years old. And when you have aging infrastructure, you really have to manage that asset.
Linda:You want to use it as long as you possibly can, but you you can't have it fail. Right? You know, you know, even if you look at Calgary, right? You can have catastrophic things that happen if you you leave your infrastructure aging too long. So this is we really need to fix this plant before we have these type of failures.
Linda:There's so many reasons to do it now, but another one is the cost. The longer we delay these upgrades, the more expensive that they're gonna be.
Tamara:So you mentioned there are several reasons to upgrade. There's also several upgrades going on at that plant. Can you give us a brief overview of of what the work is that's happening right now and and plan for the future?
Lana:At the North End, we're breaking the project into three main parts. So project one is the power supply and headworks facilities upgrade. That's the one that's currently in construction and it's scheduled for completion this year, 2026. This is the project people see when they're driving down Main Street. The Hedberg's facilities are part of the treatment process and they're the first part.
Lana:Sewage flows there by gravity, like we've been discussing. And that means that by the time it reaches the North End plant, the water is very deep underground. We're actually seven stories underground. So the first stage is to lift that sewage up to the surface so it can throw flow by gravity through the plant. And we do that using big pumps, really big pumps.
Lana:Then we screen the sewage and that removes things like sticks, rags, feminine products, and even Lego. I know. And after we screen it, we remove grit. So we need to take all of these things out of the sewage so that they don't wreak havoc on the downstream processes that get a lot more complex. That's all about project one.
Lana:Project two is the biosolids upgrade. This project is in the design phase and is scheduled for completion in 2030, but we hope to start construction this year in 2026. First off, I should explain what biosolids are. They are the solid side of sewage. So this would be poop, fats, organics, and grease.
Lana:The purpose of the biosolids facility is to take these solids and convert them into something that can be safely reused. Like you can mix it with sand from street sweepings to top landfills. And essentially you can use it anywhere where you'd use soil. Our existing biosolids treatment facility is limited where we can use it, because it still has pathogens and viruses in the end product. But our new facility is going to treat the biosolids to a higher standard where it will be safe to use anywhere, which, means that we can reuse it in more places.
Lana:And we'll do this by making sure that we kill all the pathogens and viruses in it. As Linda mentioned, the biosolids from the South End and West End plants get trucked to New Pick. So this new facility will have receiving stations where the trucks can dump their solids. The solids are then screened and then heated up to high temperatures in big concrete, structures called digesters. They're called digesters because it's similar to what's going on in your stomach, where your body breaks down your food and produces gas in the process.
Lana:We capture that gas and we actually reuse it to heat the digesters. So it's a pretty cool cycle that goes on there. Those solids need to stay in those high temperature digesters for a set amount of time so the pathogens and solids can be killed, making that end product safe to reuse. After digestion, we dewater the solids, separate out any remaining water, and then we haul that final solid product to wherever we're gonna reuse those biosolids. And Linda's gonna take on the third project.
Linda:Great. Well, project number three is the nutrient removal facility project. So this project is currently in the procurement phase, and it's scheduled for completion in 2032. So this project will have our biggest positive impact on our lakes and streams. So we talked about how we have solids and liquids treatment.
Linda:So sewage is actually predominantly liquid, like 98% of sewage is liquid. So in this final project, the treatment step is that we are removing the nutrients that are contained in our liquid stream and that would otherwise be sent out to the river. So we're talking about nitrogen, ammonia, phosphorus. So at this point, we haven't actually picked the exact treatment that we'll use, but we do know that it's going to be a biological treatment as this is what was mandated in our environmental license. So the difference between biological and chemical treatment is that in chemical treatment, we use chemicals to remove these nutrients.
Linda:The problem with using chemicals is that the nutrients that we remove are a lot harder to reuse, and the whole treatment process is harder on the environment. Biological treatment, we actually use bugs or microbes to consume the nutrients. And it's more environmentally friendly.
Lana:Yeah. Overall, these projects are very complex. And we need to keep the plant working while we construct the new one. And this is like performing an organ transplant on a body. We need to keep the person alive while we replace the kidneys, liver, lungs, hearts.
Lana:Every single part of this plant needs to be upgraded. But we have to keep it working while we do that. So big complex projects.
Natalie:This has been so important to to really understand all of these components because I think a lot of our listeners might just know that it's expensive. And and and let's get into that piece a little bit. There's maybe been various amounts associated with the the upgrades over the years. Tell us
Lana:about that. What what is this costing? Yeah. This is a major moment of investment for our city. The first project has a budget of $565,000,000.
Lana:Project two has $1,035,000,000. And project three has a budget of $1,570,000,000. So altogether, when you add all those numbers up, that's $3,000,000,000 worth of money, of investments. And, yeah, those those cost estimates have changed over the years, and there's a variety of reasons for that. Originally, we were only going to design to an estimated population growth for Winnipeg to 2035.
Lana:But as time has gone on and some environmental regulations have changed, we've had to update our design year to the population estimate for Winnipeg in 2050. And we've actually seen a lot of population growth in Winnipeg in the last couple of years. This means that the plant will be bigger and it will last longer, but it costs more upfront. Also, the past five years, escalation has skyrocketed due to COVID and ongoing wars that impacts the price. And as our design progresses, we actually do more and more environmental assessments on that existing infrastructure.
Lana:And so sometimes our assumptions on infrastructure that we thought we could reuse are proven incorrect, and we have to go and improve a process that we didn't think we had to before. So all of this impacts the cost estimate throughout time. And we do balance the cost to construct the plant with the cost to run the plant. So sometimes we actually choose a process that may cost more upfront, but will save us money in the long run. We're thinking about the next twenty five years as well.
Lana:So it's all a balancing act. And we're very mindful of the ratepayers and their hard earned money. Both Linda and I live in Winnipeg, and it impacts us as well. We also have to be accountable to our friends and neighbors and to all the city residents. So we're always looking to optimize the cost and get our best bang for our buck.
Lana:Yeah.
Linda:We talk a lot about cost, but, you know, I thought maybe we could, you know, add in some stuff about complexity. Like, the treatment of sewage is inherently complex. There's so many factors you need to consider. You know, sewage is actually hard to control and predict. You're really at the mercy of, one, the weather, and two, what people put down their sewers.
Linda:So there's such a wide range of type of sewage that we are accepting. Our contributors are both residential and industrial businesses. We also have a partially combined collection system, so the volume of sewage that you receive at a plant can vary significantly. So, design of a sewage treatment plant is not an off the shelf solution. We really need to make sure that the solution is best for Winnipeg.
Linda:And there's a lot of considerations when designing a sewage treatment plant. You know, one is space, like how much area do we have available to complete the plant. Some cities, like in European or Asian countries, they are very limited by space. Here in Winnipeg, we do have space, but we are also limited by the New Pick site, And we're actually limited by the railway tracks, because we have some railway tracks that intersect our site. The North end is also surrounded by a residential area.
Linda:So, other considerations would be odor from the resultant plant or noise during construction. Sewage treatment is very temperature dependent. The environment in Winnipeg would limit what type of technologies we can use because we have this extreme temperature range here. So these are just a few things that we have to consider when we design and construction a plant. And all of these combined make it a very complex process.
Natalie:And Linda, if I can, because we are talking about predictions and patterns, something you've shared in the past that I thought would be fun to share. There are some patterns you can see and predict with behavior in our city. An example was a Jets game.
Linda:You don't see it in the sewage system because collection collections buffers it out, but you see it in the water.
Natalie:You see it in the water.
Linda:Okay. You see it in the water. So you would see the pump stations ramp up. The the demand comes quickly. The collection system
Natalie:we're And talking about during like During,
Linda:you know, it would always be during intermission. When everyone goes to the bathroom, you would see the water pump, water usage jump up. Buffered Sewer by your collection system, so you wouldn't see it as much.
Lana:You do see a diurnal flow, which means that you see a spike in the morning when people get up. They've been sleeping all night. They get up, they shower, they use the washroom. You know, that definitely has a peak in the morning. And then it kind of tapers off during the day.
Lana:And then in the evening when people return back home, they start cooking, dishwashers, things like that. You'll see another spike there as well. So there is, there's kind of this natural peak a couple of times a day. And definitely, if there's a rain event or something like that, it'll throw that peak way off. But, yeah, there's there is people impact their sewage for sure.
Tamara:So in addition to this being a very big budget, it's also a very big project, which we've kind of outlined. But is there a way that you can really put that into perspective for our listeners? Like, you drive by, you see the site, you see a lot of work going on, but put that into a little bit more context for us.
Lana:Yeah. For sure. This is a big project. It's the biggest one the city's ever undertaken. For example, the drinking water treatment plant in 2009 was $300,000,000, and New Pick will be over $3,000,000,000 so 10 times bigger.
Lana:And let's think about that just in terms of people. Headworks, it's currently in construction and employs over 200 people. So we've got a lot of people out there building that first project. Biosolids, the second project, it's in the design phase and it has over 400 people working on just the design. And when we start construction this year, it's going to increase from there.
Lana:Nutrient removal will be even bigger. So they'll have even more people on design and construction. Because this project is so big, the market may not be able to support the project. So we have to consider that as one of our risks. And having the project delivered in three parts allows us to strategically stagger the labor requirement on this mega project.
Lana:When you think about this project in terms of materials, we also see how huge it is. For example, we use a lot of concrete. The amount of concrete that we're using on the first project, the headworks project, is twice as much that was used to build the Canada Life Centre. And there are three major concrete suppliers in Winnipeg, and at one point in time, those three plants were exclusively producing concrete for the headworks project. When we look at the amount of money that we're spending on this project, you have to think about how this project will serve Winnipeg for over twenty five years and some of the assets will serve Winnipeg for over one hundred years.
Lana:So when we look at our economic analysis, we see that it benefits Manitobans and Canadians through the payback from employment and taxes. And that benefit is just so much larger than the price tag of today. So, yeah, the North End plant is a big project, but it'll help not only Winnipeggers but Manitobans and Canadians as a whole.
Natalie:So people who drive by New Pick, for those who don't know, it's on the West far west end of the Chief Peguis Trail. You know, you might see a crane or some work happening, but but most of the construction is actually underground, and and we need you to to be our eyes there. Tell us what's happening down there.
Linda:Yeah. Like you said, the majority of the work is happening seven stories underground. So it's only about three stories that is above ground. So we have lots of chambers and tunnels for sewage and tunnels for people and equipment to move through. So really, you know, all of this is underground and you wouldn't see it from Main Street.
Linda:You know, working out there, we have the opportunity to tour the site and, you know, it's amazing. Like, you you have to go down this set of stairs, like seven stories down, and, you've to save your strength for coming back up. And it kind of feels like you're a miner, going down into this big, windowless pit. It really gives you a perspective on the people who are constructing the plan and how physical this work can be. I also think that when you're on these huge construction sites, it's just amazing how much planning that goes into this.
Linda:Like, there are thousands and thousands of tasks, and they need to be done in a very specific order, you know? So it's just a huge complex job and truly amazing just to watch it being built and the progression of it being built. You know, there are so many different types of things going on. You know, we have every discipline working on this. We have people working on concrete, and electrical, mechanical instrumentation.
Linda:We have plumbers, bricklayers, we have got elevators and roads, everything. You name it, we have it. So it's really neat to be on this project.
Tamara:Both you, your project teams, administration here are putting a lot of thought into this project. Now, it's not just what work is being done, but who's actually doing the work. What do these upgrades mean for people who are looking for work in Manitoba?
Lana:Yeah. We'll be employing a lot of people. And extra special, the North End upgrade had a council policy, a social procurement policy mandated on it. So the Biosolids project is going to be the first one to implement that social procurement policy. And that social procurement policy focuses on increasing representation of skilled labor from indigenous and underrepresented groups.
Lana:And right now, we're in the planning stages for how to successfully implement this social procurement mandate. But there's no playbook for this. This is all brand new to the city. So we're trying to think outside the box, and we're looking at what other cities, other big projects, other Winnipeg departments, or local agencies have to offer. And really, that focus is on the skilled labor.
Lana:But even if you were to start this project at the general labor position, we would be looking for opportunities to help increase those general laborers' skill level over time within the project. We have five years, so we're really hoping that we can benefit the population here. And we are currently focused on the labor needed for the next five years. However, we want to ensure that there is sustainability here, so we're looking at what work will be available for these employees even when this project is completed. So we want to make sure that we connect anybody who works on this project with other future city projects and even the new plant that we'll have because we'll need new workers there too.
Lana:So anybody who's skilled labor can probably apply to the the new plant
Tamara:that we're building. So you can build it and then work there.
Lana:Yeah. If you build it, you can work there. This
Natalie:has been, wow, an eye opener. And before we go, I guess, we look at this with clear eyes, it's a good time to talk about misconceptions and anything you wanna address that you you hear out there when maybe people find out what you do for work.
Linda:You know, I would say one of the biggest misconceptions about the new pick upgrade is that once we complete it, you know, all the problems for, like, Winnipeg will be fixed. You know, Winnipeg, for sure, it is the largest single point contributor of phosphorus to Lake Winnipeg. However, at this time, Winnipeg only contributes about 3% of the phosphorus, you know, going to Lake Winnipeg. So really, once all the upgrades are completed, Winnipeg will be about just over 1% of the loading to, you know, to the Lake. So there's still be a significant amount of phosphorus still being released.
Linda:Right? So, you know, the city is definitely committed to doing our part through the New upgrades. However, everyone needs to do their part, and NEWPCC is only, you know, one little part of that solution. A lot of misconceptions too. I don't know if this is the right place for this, but it is, you know, what people should be flushing down their toilet or putting down their sink.
Tamara:Since you mentioned Lego, I have so many questions about putting down so many. So maybe let's what what are some of the oddest things?
Linda:Well, I wouldn't say odd, but this is, you know, for people, do not really try and limit the amount of oil and grease you send down. This really especially wreaks havoc on our collection systems. You know, gone are the days where you should be, you know, frying up your pan of bacon and then pouring it down the drain. Put it put it in a jar, you know, send it to the garbage. Right?
Linda:Other things that you should not send down your drain. Flushable wipes, tampons, not just the applicator, but the actual tampon, condoms, hair actually causes a, you know, an issue with the process too. So try and, you know, capture your hair. Don't just be throwing it down the drain. Lana, do you have anything else to add?
Lana:I have a misconception at home. So, I have two young daughters and, they actually think that I operate the sewage treatment plant, and and they don't really understand the that I'm working on the construction side of it. But, yeah, when they were really little, they used to, like, flush the toilet say, bye. Mommy, I'll see you later. Yeah.
Lana:No. They're they're older now. They understand. But, yeah, definitely when they were younger, it was really cute. That's really sweet.
Tamara:As long as they weren't flushing toys down the toilet.
Lana:No. No Lego. No Lego.
Linda:But but a lot of things are flushed down the toilet. You you hear tons of stuff being being found like, you know, reptiles in the collection system. Right? You know, people might flush their snake down or, you know, like things you've heard, like diamond rings, dentures. We actually have one person that called in and said they accidentally, you know, flushed their dentures down and was wondering if we found them.
Linda:And, yeah, I I don't think we found them.
Lana:We didn't.
Tamara:I think we mentioned earlier, this is the biggest project in the city's history. What does it mean to each of you to be working on this?
Lana:Yeah. This project is so exciting to work on it. I'm just so grateful. There's never a slow or dull day. I'm just constantly learning new things, whether it's new technologies or methods or new delivery models even.
Lana:We're trying new things on this project. And, that's where you really gotta lean on your team and and pull in the right team and work with the right team. We talked about how big that team is before. And we have just a fantastic team to work on. So really excited about that.
Lana:Also, having the social procurement is also super rewarding. It's a new way to improve people's lives beyond just helping the environment.
Linda:Yeah. I agree. You know, it really does feel like we are making a difference for Winnipeg and the environment for the years to come. This is by far the hardest job I've ever had to do. And the whole team worked so hard, and we put in so many hours.
Linda:This job really isn't for everyone. So but we are all really doing our part to ensure that Winnipeg's best interests are served.
Natalie:Last question for you. It's a question that we ask everybody. What's that one thing that you wish everyone knew about Winnipeg?
Linda:Okay. Mine is actually a water and waste fact. So not everyone knows that Winnipeg's drinking water source is from Shoal Lake, which is actually on the Manitoba Ontario border. So water from this lake flows by gravity through a 100 year old pipe to the water treatment plant, which is just east of the city. So this pipe is like an engineering marvel.
Linda:Like, just to think that this was, you know, designed and constructed over a 100 years ago is it's really amazing. Actually, like my husband and I traveled to the Panama Canal one year for our anniversary, and they had a museum there that showed a whole bunch of pictures on on the construction of this of the Panama Canal. And they looked remarkably the same as the construction pictures that we have for the city of Winnipeg's aqueduct. Because I guess it was around the same time, very different parts of the world. But, yeah, they looked almost exactly the same.
Linda:So that was so cool.
Lana:Yeah. And actually, the Panama Canal actually has another title, Winnipeg. Fun fact, the Panama Canal is the largest earth moving project in the world. And the Winnipeg's floodway is the second largest. Excellent.
Lana:Winnipeg's pretty cool.
Natalie:Always so cool. Thank you so much for joining us, you guys.
Tamara:That was a great conversation about something that will really be a piece of Winnipeg's history for, well, they said, over a century.
Natalie:Yeah. Really, really busy professionals, so it's so amazing they could come talk to us. Coming up next month, we are gonna take a turn over to the city's open data portal.
Natalie:Have you ever jumped on there?
Tamara:I have. I actually was interested in the trees on my street and you can find that out through that portal along with a whole bunch of other things.
Natalie:We're going to talk to the city's senior data scientists about how you take those those data points, those numbers, and you turn them into stories and understanding.
Tamara:And if there's any stories you want us to cover or tell about the city, email us at city-podcast@Winnipeg.ca. Thanks for listening.
Lana:Bye for now.
