Ben & Dave from Golf Services
Download MP3We know our services and programs impact you. So let's talk about them. Together, we'll learn from the people behind the scenes and get to know our city a little better. From the city of Winnipeg, this is Our City, Our Podcast.
Natalie:This podcast is recorded in Treaty 1 territory, the home and traditional lands of the Anishinaabe, Enu, and Dakota peoples, and the national homeland of the Red River Metis. We acknowledge that our drinking water comes from Shoal Lake forty First Nation in Treaty 3 territory. Hi, I'm Natalie.
Tamara:And I'm Tamara. Natalie, how's your summer going?
Natalie:Oh, this is the season, isn't it? I hope that you are listening to this episode somewhere where you're getting some sunshine. Last month, we talked about getting to the pools and on that theme, we're gonna stay outdoors.
Tamara:Golf is one really great option for people. If they're looking to try a new sports, why not consider our links? Today we're talking to Ben Fey, the General Manager of Golf Services and Dave Comaskey, Golf Operations Coordinator. Let's tee off. Fore.
Tamara:Hi, Ben. Hi, Dave. Thank you so much for joining us. Golf season is in full swing, but we did manage to find a brief opening in your busy schedule. So thank you for coming down here.
Tamara:Golf usually isn't the first thing that comes to mind when you think of services that the city of Winnipeg offers. So what exactly is the city's involvement with the sport? And Ben, let's start with you.
Ben:Okay, thanks for having us today. Happy to be here and chat about some golf. The city has been involved from a municipal operations perspective in golf courses for actually over a hundred years. Many people, if not most people, are always surprised when I tell them that the city owns 12 golf courses. There's four that we operate directly, fully operated by city staff.
Ben:And those four would be Kildonan Park, Windsor Park, Crescent Drive, and then new to the fold this year would be the Canoe Club. We have Harbourview and John Bloomberg golf courses with a little bit of a hybrid model where city staff do the maintenance operation at Harbourview. And then the pro shop side would be contracted out to a third party operator. John Bloomberg, again, another one of the courses that's owned by the city, but we have a management agreement with an operator out there. And then there are some courses that would fall into our least courses category.
Ben:So courses like Assiniboine Golf Club, Tuxedo, Rossmere, Transcona, St. Boniface, and Wildwood. All properties and golf courses that are owned by the city, but fully leased out. So there's no city staff that are working on-site at those courses, but we do manage the leases and provide oversight to those golf courses. In addition to those golf courses, we have responsibility for the lease of Thermea Spa, which is located at the Crescent Drive Golf Course.
Ben:And then also the Cross Country Ski Association, which takes over the facility at Windsor Park Golf Course for the winter season.
Natalie:That's a that's a wow. That's a really great distinction for folks really about what a big footprint we have in this city when it comes to golf courses. But for the next few questions, we do wanna ask you a little more about these city owned and operated courses. David, tell us what makes an experience at a city run course a little different?
Dave:We currently operate with city staff at the Killam Park, the Windsor Park Golf Courses, Crescent Drive Golf Course, and the Canoe Club golf course. And we've really made strides to really increase the experience for the golfer at the city run golf courses. There's a misconception out there that, you know, there are municipal golf courses and the pace of play is slow and the golf course isn't groomed the way other golf courses are. And so we've really made that a priority for us to change that misconception. So to answer your question, affordability is key.
Dave:The golfer experience, you know, when they arrive in the parking lot into the pro shop to pay their green fee, play golf. And then when they leave, we want to make sure that they have a very positive experience from the start to finish. You know, we've done a lot of upgrades to the golf courses in the last number of years from patio at Kilonean to a deck at Windsor Park to, you know, with the acquisition of the Canoe Club this year, we've done a lot there both in the pro shop and on the golf course. All of it is based on making sure that the golfer has very positive, enjoyable experience.
Natalie:And, you know, maybe there's some preconceptions by some out there that, you know, golf has a dress code. It's for certain people of certain ages. I understand you're trying to challenge that a bit.
Dave:For sure. For sure. We they're within the golf industry and the golf experience. There's definitely know, there's golfers that want that experience of, you know, your typical private golf course will have a dress code and where at our courses, we ask that people have clothing on. But we, you know, it's a more relaxed environment and I think that's what appeals to a lot of people.
Dave:The Kelowna Park Golf Course is probably I'm sure there's other golf courses that are close, but probably the busiest golf course in the province. Know, and that's golf is booming right now, so that's part of it. But there's also a real need and desire to have that more relaxed environment, you know, for people to just get out and enjoy it in a T shirt, if that's what they like, then we welcome that for sure.
Tamara:You just mentioned that golf is booming right now, especially for an old sport. That's kind of nice to see a resurgence. How are we seeing that here? Are we seeing that here?
Ben:We are absolutely. Golf is hot right now. And this goes back leading up to a couple of years before the pandemic. There's a thought that golf had its resurgence because of COVID. And that's not all the way true.
Ben:We started to see based on our data that golf popularity wise was increasing in 2018. And and then again in 2019 compared to 2018. So we were starting to see a rise. And then we were hit with the pandemic and golf was one of the few activities that people could still do safely in an outdoor setting in terms of the restrictions and things like that, like, know, it provided for physical distancing and it was in an outdoor setting. There were a few restrictions that we had to make, but but because of that and and and because of the nature of the pandemic where, you know, thing other activities and social outings were not available to people, a lot of people took up golf or returned to golf.
Ben:So there was there was people that returned to the sport who maybe stopped playing. And there's definitely been some retention coming out of the pandemic. Maybe just as an example. So like we have data that shows from 2010 to 2019, our courses, so the four city operated courses, we're averaging 79,000 rounds per season. And from 2020 until now, right?
Ben:So the last five years, we're now averaging 104,000 rounds a year.
Tamara:Yeah. That's a huge increase.
Ben:It is. Yes, it's been wonderful. You know, and then, you know, aside from obviously the resurgence that pandemic helped provide, The the perception that golf is an elitist, a stuffy sport, it's disappearing, finally. You know, people have realized the physical and mental health benefits that playing golf provides. It's maybe is the best sport out there or activity to, you know, where you can get some exercise, and it's also a social outing.
Ben:Right? I mean, we at our courses, we're seeing more play than ever in the late afternoon and evenings. You know, there's people that have joined our leagues that are playing after work, whether it's nine or 18 holes. They don't even necessarily care how many holes they're playing. They just wanna get out.
Ben:They wanna be outdoors. They wanna do they wanna socialize and hit a few golf shots. So, like I said, you know, I mean, the the perception around, you know, golf is this game for rich, you know, for your rich old people or maybe your grandpa plays. It's not the case anymore. We're seeing more and more younger people play.
Ben:Junior golf is on the rise. We have women's leagues that are sold out at our courses. There is higher participation amongst both junior golfers and women golfers. So it's really nice to see.
Natalie:I don't know if you could answer this. This is just a silly sidebar. But I remember as a kid people saying golf is an acronym for gentlemen only ladies forbidden. Is that do you know anything about that?
Ben:I've heard it.
Tamara:Yeah. I've heard it as
Dave:well that I don't know whether there's any Yeah.
Natalie:Is there anything to
Dave:or not. I mean,
Ben:I just think that it would sort of align with golf as a game for rich old white dudes. And that's not the case anymore.
Dave:There's a there's a history of that, right, where it's old white guys that, no women, you know, like that sort of thing. But I don't know if there's any truth to that or not.
Ben:Well, there certainly isn't anymore. Yeah. No. Yeah. Yeah.
Ben:Yeah. Like at one time, like you said, mean, women weren't allowed to play just like women weren't allowed to vote. And I mean, it's completely ridiculous, right? Can't believe that was ever a thing.
Natalie:And now, yeah, like you said, you we've got these booms in in women's leagues, which is just so cool.
Dave:Yeah.
Natalie:You know, another topic here. Windsor Park celebrating a a key milestone. It started up 1925, makes it a 100 years, this year. What are you what are you planning for that?
Dave:Well, you're correct that Windsor Park turned 100 this year and we mimicked a lot of what we did at Kelowna Park for Windsor Park. Some one hundredth anniversary merchandise, signage in and around the golf course. At the last week of July, we offered a rate of $19.25 We have a commemorative boulder near the first tee at Windsor Park, which is to commemorate the one hundredth anniversary. And we did the same thing one at Kildonan. So just a number of things to make people aware of it and celebrate fact that these golf courses have been around for one hundred years.
Natalie:And multiple generations who have golfed in these locations. Kildonan, did you get some great memories from
Dave:the We did. There's a woman who had been playing Kildonan Park since I believe the 40s or the 50s that she provided some interesting stories. And we've had some people who have played Windsor for many years come forward with pictures and stories as well. And you're right, many generations. And we take a lot of pride in the fact that these golf courses are still around.
Natalie:It's pretty rare that a piece of city infrastructure can really last and thrive a century later. Yet that's the case we're seeing with several of our courses. Does that present any challenges? And what are you doing to update or upgrade?
Ben:It does. Yeah. So, you know, the courses are aging. Kilodonna Park Golf Course turned 100 in 2021. So our golf courses are amongst some of the oldest anywhere in the province.
Ben:And when the courses were designed back in the early nineteen hundreds, it's our opinion that the designers didn't take into account for, you know, changes in the sport related to modern day technology. So at Kildonan Park, for example, we're kind of tapped out for space, right? So the course by today's standard is shorter than a golf course that would now be being built. So we've done other things to keep the golf courses interesting in terms of the strategic part of playing a golf course. We've renovated bunkers, we've moved tee boxes.
Ben:We can't make the courses any longer because we're tapped for space. You know, one of the unique things about and rare things, I think, about a golf course that's as busy as Quilhedonin is it's it's right in the heart of the city. I mean, it's a long Main Street, you know, in a major city in Canada. So kinda tapped out for space as far as that goes. But the golf courses have remained very playable.
Ben:The our 18 hole courses, Killed Onan and Windsor, can really host any level of golfer from someone picking up clubs for the first time. They can rent clubs at our courses and feel comfortable trying out golf at a municipal golf course. And then, you know, the courses are still relevant enough that they can challenge a seasoned golfer, someone who might be able to break par. So we do welcome all, as Dave mentioned before, the courses remain amongst the most affordable in the Winnipeg market. And we welcome golfers of all level.
Tamara:Any truth to the rumor Bob Hope golfed our courses?
Ben:Yeah, that one's still up for debate. It's an interesting one. And we did do some research into this a few years ago when we celebrated Kilwandons one hundred, because that was the thought, was that back some time ago that Bob Hope played 18 holes of golf at Kilwandons Park Golf Course, which would be very cool if true. And we had our archives team look into the history and see what they could find. And they couldn't really definitively say one way or another that he played it killed on it.
Ben:I think it's pretty well received that he was playing golf in Winnipeg. The course remains a bit of a mystery and a bit of a fun one for folks to kick around and chat about.
Tamara:What would you say to people who aren't golfers and are maybe a little concerned that some of their tax dollars are going towards the courses?
Ben:Golf services is an SOA, which within the city is a special operating agency. And so, we're mandated to operate like a business. Council has been very clear that they expect us to be profitable year in and year out. So I would say that the residents can take comfort that our operation has been profitable now for the last number of years consecutively. And that's for a number of reasons.
Ben:Obviously, is up, but our golf courses are being maintained as well as they ever have been. They're in as good a shape as many of the semi private clubs that are out there. Our rates are attractive. We have a loyalty program. We have the latest technology in terms of our POS system and email database.
Ben:We have a mobile app that's free to golfers. So there's been a real concerted effort amongst our team here at Golf Services to improve the golf experience for those that play our courses and also to change the perception around municipal golf courses.
Dave:Maybe if I could just add as well that we run very lean from a staffing standpoint and from business decisions that we make, that's investments that we're gonna make in the golf courses, that sort of thing. We make business decisions very consciously and not frivolously. So our goal is to be profitable every year. As Ben said, the last five, six years, we've achieved that and we see that continuing going forward.
Tamara:And I understand you're working on making the greens more green.
Dave:For sure. We're in the third year of having, just as a few examples, a third year of having a brand new fleet of electric golf carts. So forever we were gas powered. With the green thinking in mind, we chose to go to electric. We have some electric maintenance equipment.
Dave:We have electric beverage carts at the golf courses. We don't apply chemicals to the golf course without a lot of thought and planning involved, and so we're very conscious of that. Yes, definitely. We really view ourselves as protectors of the space and want to make sure that we're doing our part to be green as we can.
Natalie:A little more on the element of being green and actually holding this massive green footprint in the city. How are you looking at maybe making these spaces maybe usable more throughout the year as opposed to just the golf season?
Ben:So the Cross Country Ski Association, they have an agreement with us and they provide what many consider to be the premier cross country ski destination in the province at Windsor Park. The trails are lit. And so the ski trails are able to be used well into the evening throughout the winter. And, you know, I'm not a cross country skier myself, but I have popped by there in the winter season, and the parking lot is just as full as it would be in the summer for for a busy golf day. So the trails are being well used.
Ben:It's a full it's a full blown ski operation. It is a pay to use operation over there at Windsor. Besides from that track, there is ski trails available at a number of the other city owned golf courses. In some cases, are maintained by the Parks and Open Spaces division within the city. And in some cases, as an example, at St.
Ben:Boniface, Wildwood, and Rossmere, those folks maintain their own trails and they're available for cross country ski or for general walking, general use. But it is our goal to have year round use at all of the city owned courses. The more the residents of our city can have access to these facilities year round, the better.
Natalie:So something that, you know, we might see change continue to change?
Ben:Yes. Like at Kildonan, we have we have a relationship with the Sevenoak School Division. And what they do is they as part of their winter phys ed program, they have a learn to ski option for students. And so, the schools within the division, are there during the day. We've also had Winnipeg Trails and they they focus on an adaptive ski program for those with accessibility needs.
Ben:And so they have specialized equipment. They're also based out of Kilone in the winter. We've looked at and had conversations with the area counselor about a ski option over at Tuxedo in that end of town. So we're getting there. We're almost there.
Ben:There's a few courses left that don't have anything happening yet in the winter, but it's our hope that we can have that changed.
Dave:Maybe if I could just add to Ben's comments that we've given some consideration to simulators right now in golf are booming to say least. There's been a number of simulators pop up around the city. And so it's something that we've looked at that, you know, again, with the goal to have year round use at the facilities. And so stay tuned on that one. There's been no decision made, but certainly something we're considering for the future.
Tamara:I think a lot of people who are golfers have very fond memories of the courses they've played, holes that they've maybe been challenged by. For both of you, what are your favorite golf holes, most hated golf holes, favorite memories on your courses? Maybe let's start with you, Dave.
Dave:Well, I think the obvious one for me and a lot of people would probably feel the same way as the tenth hole at Kildonan is extremely unique. I mean, that plays that golf course is aware of the tenth hole. For those that haven't, you have the option of either going under or over an old train bridge, which is very unique. There was a podcast that we were made aware of not that long ago that has, I think it was 100,000 followers. And they were speaking to the uniqueness of that hole.
Dave:Again, it's a signature hole for us. So that would probably be the one for me that stands out and I enjoy the most.
Natalie:And the name of that podcast, it was something like, is it broken? Like they usually talk about holes that are broken and they decided that hole is not.
Dave:That's
Ben:right. Design disasters, I think it was called.
Dave:That's exactly it.
Ben:Yeah. When that was first sent to us, thought maybe this wasn't going to go the way we wanted it to. But the hosts of the podcast were quite complimentary of the design of the hole and the uniqueness of having a train bridge right in the middle of a par three. And so it was well received and neat to see.
Tamara:What about you, Ben? Do you have any fond memories or favorite holes?
Ben:Well, I mean, Dave took the easy one. I mean, everybody knows about the tenth hole at Kildonan, but another one that sticks out for me would be the twelfth hole at Windsor Park. It's a beautiful par four, slight dogleg to the right, the Seine River winds through near the green and there's an elevation change as well. So the fairway slopes down towards the creek, the river, I should say, and then back up towards the green. And so, it's definitely one that stands out and a popular one amongst our golfers.
Tamara:And Ben, I understand that you kind of got into the sport at a city course as well?
Ben:Well, when I first started, when I was introduced to the sport by actually my grandpa, he started taking me to Crescent Drive, which is the perfect spot for young kids to learn how to play. It's a nine hole course of all par threes. It's short, it's an easy walk. And that's how I got my start. And I have a ton of memories playing at Crescent Drive.
Ben:This would be, you know, years before the spa, which is there now. And so it had a little bit of a different look to it. There was a different clubhouse, different practice screen, but the nine holes of the golf course are still the same. And so I'm obviously there quite regularly throughout the summer. And I often will think back to my start in golf, which was, yeah, it was at Crescent Drive.
Natalie:Another, you know, important element I understand for golfing, I'm not a golfer, though is this connection to nature. And can you let us in on how you share this space? Not just with, you know, some incredible trees, but some animals and how you live in kind of or act in harmony with that.
Dave:Yeah, for sure. Like it's well, the golf courses that either border or have the river run through them, there's a lot of regularity see deer and fox. And last summer we had a pack of coyotes that were living at Kildonan Park Golf Course. And it was a little alarming for people when they would see a pack of coyotes. When there was, I was there, whatever day it was, and there was an ambulance that went down Main Street with the sirens going, and the coyotes lost their minds.
Dave:So for people to hear that, it's a little bit alarming, but we worked with our friends at Animal Control in the province, urban coyotes is the term, and they said not to worry. And we posted some signage and information for golfers to ease their mind that there isn't, there's very little, if any, risk involved. So yeah, no, it's definitely a sanction for wildlife. And that again, is just part of the golfer experience that makes it so unique.
Tamara:Okay, so I am also not a golfer. So now's your chance. So why should we try the sport? And why should we try the sport at your courses?
Ben:Well, I don't know why you wouldn't. I
Tamara:mean Well, you're selling us here with every answer.
Ben:Golf has gotta be the best game going right now for so many different reasons. You know, and even if you're not inclined, competitively, or you care about your score, things like that, it's just such a great way to get out and socialize, get some exercise, be outdoors on some beautiful city owned properties, you know, with maintained green space. I mean, there's a chance you'll run into some nature, a deer or a fox, you know, and things like that.
Tamara:Maybe a coyote.
Ben:Maybe a coyote, but a friendly one.
Tamara:Yes.
Ben:You know, and so there's a lot of different opportunities out there right now with golf whether it's a league that you might wanna join. And there's different reasons people join those leagues. And golf is not necessarily at the top of the list. It's for socializing. I mean, know, our golf courses now at Kildonan in Windsor, there's a beautiful patio that overlooks the Eighteenth Green at Kildonan.
Ben:Last summer, we completed a deck project that overlooks the ninth Hole at Windsor. And so, you know, things that are that would, it might not be the answer that, you know, like a lot of people I've been asked that question before, And people might expect me to say things like, you know, you can work on your swing or you can get lessons or you can go from shooting a 100 to 80. And those are all true. And for a lot of people that is why they play golf or they get hooked on it because, you know, it's a game that you play with other people, but you play against yourself, so to speak. You always wanna improve and it's there's an addicting impact that golf can have on people.
Ben:But it's not only that, there's just so many other things that golf provides and it's a relief from everyday life. It's something to do after work and exercise and things of that nature. And then, you know, the other thing that I would add is it's laid back, especially at our courses. Like, you know, we, aside from the decks and patios and, you know, food and beverage and things like that, like we installed sound systems so there's music playing. You know, we encourage folks to bring a Bluetooth speaker and have that going while they're, if they're riding a cotter in our course and very relaxed dress code, you know, like it's not uncommon to see someone out there in flip flops and a backwards hat.
Ben:And that's not necessarily the case at some other courses.
Tamara:Natalie, you might have to take the next show on the road to a golf course, I think. Yeah. I have one more question. I'm going to put you both on the spot here. Who's the better golfer?
Tamara:Ben. Oh. Oh. That was, like, by a lot, I guess. That was You wanted speechless.
Tamara:Alright. Is it because he knew he was the better golfer?
Dave:No. He just is.
Natalie:Well, you know, I've I've I've learned a lot here. Thanks so much for joining us today. We have a last question. It's something we ask everyone. And it's to ask you to share something about Winnipeg you wish everybody knew.
Natalie:It can be work related, it can be golf related, but it doesn't have to be.
Dave:Well, I think for me, it's and we've touched on it a lot today, but just the misconception of golf within the city of Winnipeg that's, you know, for the longest time there was a misconception that the golf courses were losing money and that when you went to the golf course, it was gonna take six hours to play 18 holes, poorly groomed and not a great experience. And again, we've worked really hard and I think we're breaking down some of those barriers, but the biggest thing for me is that the golf courses are a lot more than people who haven't played them think they are. I've, you know, over my time with the city that I've brought a lot of friends out to play golf and very regularly do we hear, wow, wow, I didn't realize it was going to be as good as it is. That's probably the biggest
Natalie:one. Ben, how about yourself? Something you wish people knew about Winnipeg?
Ben:Well, aside from how great our golf courses are, I think, you know, the city in general is just awesome. I love living here. One of the things that irks me actually, I have two kids in hockey and, you know, follow the sport. And when I hear things like many of the NHL players don't wanna move to Winnipeg and play for the Jets because of the city and blah, blah, blah, that irks me. One of the best things about Winnipeg in my opinion is the people.
Ben:They're as good as anywhere in the world. It's just, there's something about the people in the city that once you're here and once you become rooted here, you don't want to leave. And if you do, because of reasons that are maybe out of your control, you can't wait to come back.
Natalie:Love it. Well, thanks again and happy golfing. Have a great season, you guys.
Dave:Thank you. Thanks for having us.
Ben:Thanks. Hope to see you out there.
Tamara:Okay, Natalie. I'm saying it here. I'm gonna get back out on the course. Gonna have a bit more patience and hopefully, a better swing, I think.
Natalie:Hey. Well, I hope you get there. Before we get to our next episode next month, on our city, our podcast. Been there was reflecting a little bit about, you know, the money, the projections. We're gonna go deeper.
Natalie:It's September. So we're gonna hit the books.
Tamara:That's right. We are talking, economy here at the city with our economists. And if you have questions either for them or if you want to know anything else that's going on in the city that you think we should take a deeper dive here on the podcast, email us please. We'd love to hear from you. City-podcast@winnipeg.ca
Natalie:Talk to you soon.
