Grant from Vehicles for Hire
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Natalie:This podcast is recorded in Treaty 1 territory, the home and traditional lands of the Anishinaabe, Ininew, and Dakota peoples, and the national homeland of the Red River Metis. We acknowledge that our drinking water comes from Shoal Lake forty First Nation in Treaty 3 territory. Hi, I'm Natalie.
Tamara:And I'm Tamara. Natalie, we are in December. The year has gone by so fast. And today's episode, we're on brand when it comes to holiday party season.
Natalie:Yeah. Today, we're talking about how Winnipeg regulates taxis and ride sharing services. Okay. Stick stick with us here, because I I you know, it's kinda how the sausage is made. It might be something you don't really think about when you go home after a Jets game or or jump in a cab after a New Year's Eve party.
Tamara:But it is very interesting, and, we thank Grant Heather for joining us today. He's the city's manager of vehicles for hire. Now since 2018, he has helped design the system that oversees everything from taxis to apps like Uber and Lyft, and he's helping to build a safer, more inclusive industry from the ground up.
Natalie:So there's been a major shift happening on Winnipeg Roads. And unless you're like our guest today and are are kinda deep in the know, you may not have given it much thought. But the numbers are dramatic. We're talking about how Winnipeggers use ride shares, cabs, and and technology based platforms like Uber and Lyft. Grant, let's just jump straight into the stats on this one.
Natalie:How much have things changed in the last decade?
Grant:So the City of Winnipeg took over regulating the vehicle for hire industry in 2018. Prior to that, there was basically only taxi cabs, limos, luxury type vehicles operating in the city. And what that transition did is it allowed for what is kind of known out in the industry as rideshare, app based ridesharing, non metered vehicles to begin providing support also. At the time we took over, there was about 4,500,000 trips provided in Winnipeg in 2018. As of the 2024, that number was now 10,300,000 trips.
Grant:That's a dramatic shift in the last six years or so.
Natalie:More than double.
Grant:More than double. And that has seen that's not Winnipeg has grown a bit since 2018 population wise but not in that same dramatic number. What that means is we've seen a complete multimodal shift in the way of thinking. People are using rideshare, they're using taxis, they're very comfortable with the service. It's competitive, it's reasonably priced, and it's a great way to get around, especially when you got to get from point a to point b and other modes of transportation aren't necessarily time convenient or feasible from a transportation standpoint or you don't have that time to do it.
Grant:There's lots of capacity in the industry to provide that service. Taxis, there's about 600 licensed taxis on the road and they are out there on a monthly basis working 20 fourseven providing service at all hours. They'll take you everywhere. They are all the major venues in the city. Rideshare is kind of more on on demand.
Grant:You call them, via the apps, or prebook service and they'll show up. They will take you there. They have a lot of ability to scale up and scale down. There's a lot of part time gig. It's kind of part of that gig economy where people are doing a very part time work.
Grant:And there's there are a number in the rideshare in the in the PTP as we call them personal transportation provider category who are that's what they do for a job. Whether they're ex cab drivers, maybe ex transit drivers in some cases, or they're just retired and they want to supplement their retirement income, but they're willing to work twenty or thirty hours a week providing service.
Tamara:So just so that we're understanding this properly, how do you define a ride?
Grant:So a ride is any time that somebody receives payment for a transportation service where the passenger controls the or makes the decision on the starting point and ending point and generally controls the route.
Natalie:So you've on this. Let's let's get in into the what's going on a little bit more. Because when we say, you know, we're looking at more people taking those rides, more than double, over ten years, what's behind that kind of growth? You know, what is changing about Winnipeggers' behavior? Because, you know, it's not that our population has doubled.
Grant:Right. Yeah. And just to put it in context, 10,300,000 trips is a really big number, but it equates to about 28,000 trips every day. That's every, you know, every Monday, every Tuesday, every holiday, every day. I mean recognizing that not every day of the week or of the year is going to have 28,000 trips.
Grant:That just shows the magnitude on really busy days. To answer the question, I think what we're seeing is a number of things. You know, since COVID, been COVID kind of created a bit of pent up demand for people getting out and we're still seeing that play out with the return of, you know, full scale concerts and jets and bombers and you're packing tens of thousands of people into the arena, into concert venues And people don't want to drive. They don't want to have to have the headache of parking looking for that. They want to be able to have a few adult beverages maybe and not have to worry about drinking and driving laws, not have to worry about getting home safely.
Grant:And so they just look at it and say this is an affordable, convenient and really easy way to get around using rideshare or cab service. It's easy. You have it, you know, you can pay by credit card. You don't even have to worry about cash. So many places are cashless these days.
Grant:So, you know, being convenient to have to have 20 or $30 to pay for a cash trip, It's just there. You have your profile set up and away you go. There's lots of choice, there's competition. But I think that the other big thing is that the cost of car ownership has significantly increased. The days of families having two vehicles, know, maybe doesn't exist on the scale that it used to.
Grant:People have other priorities when it comes to what they have for costs and the dollar has to stretch that much farther these days. And when people look at it, the average driver drives their vehicle for probably less than two to three hours a day. And so that's a massive expense to have when you're not using it very often and people are just using a rideshare or taxis to fill in that gap to get to grocery stores, get to their entertainment or to their medical appointments, you know, on the off chance that they do have that going on.
Tamara:And how have taxis fit into this mix with rideshare apps? There's been concerns in several cities that they might end up being wiped out, but that's not really what's happened here, is it?
Grant:Now Winnipeg may seem like a bit of an anomaly in other jurisdictions. There have been jurisdictions where taxi service has been diminished significantly and that has not happened in Winnipeg. Winnipeg's cab companies have really held their own. They provide a high level of service. The fact that they're always available, that they do run 20 fourseven, three sixty five.
Grant:You know, all the cab owners, the cabs are each owned individually. And so you've got a lot of local business owners, small businesses out on the street providing service. These are Winnipeggers who are committed to the community. And they've really done a good job adjusting, as much as they can and moving the needle, recognizing that competition is here. It's not going anywhere.
Grant:And with choice, people really now you have to up your customer service game. And so that's what we're seeing. We've seen a big shift in the way they operate over the last six or seven years and full credit to them. They've recognized where their deficiencies were and they've moved the needle for themselves quite a bit. And what it comes down to is, you know, going back to that size of market, there's a lot of trips out there to compete for.
Grant:There's a lot of choice. I mean, you know, there's when you go from 4,500,000 trips to 10,000,000 trips and this year we're looking right now at trending even higher than that 10,000,000 trips. You know, there's a lot of opportunity out there and it's just about, you know, making those inroads, promoting themselves to those, to the customers in order to be, you know, delivering those trips and the customer service.
Natalie:Let's take this conversation and reflect on on what it really means in a a changing transportation network. Rather than being dependent on on a car, like you said, this is part of a bigger shift and and mix towards more options. And and maybe we can start you've pointed out this story to me in the past. With the creation of Uber, because it's an interesting one.
Grant:Yeah, so Uber started, you know, like a lot of stuff, was a problem and somebody came up with a solution. Were, you know, and Winnipeg has park and rides, So you'll drive your personal vehicle from your home to your park and ride, which in a lot of cases is not too far from your home. And then you would park. Now think big city like New York or San Francisco and their park and rides are giant. They have massive transportation networks using subway and rail and all kinds of stuff.
Grant:And so these guys were going to their park and ride every day, getting on, dropping their car off, getting on Barda or the New York subway and taking the transportation to their businesses downtown. And they thought, you know, Geez, I'm driving my car just a short distance here and then I leave it parked for eight hours, ten hours a day only to get back in it at the end of the day and go. It'd be really great if I could coordinate sharing a ride to that location and maybe help offset those costs, maybe not have to pay for parking for ten hours a day for my car and leave it safe and maybe not even use a car at that point. And out of that, they created the app which connected those people and connected drivers, people who were willing to drive and passengers, people who were willing to pay for that service. And out of that, you get app based ride sharing.
Grant:From ride sharing and transportation from vehicle for hire service essentially, you move into what's called multimodal transportation. And that is when you link up a complete network without having to use your car at all. And so that gives people that's when you have, you know, a city would have active transportation networks, city would have transit, functional transit that includes a bus rapid transit or a spine and feeder system like Winnipeg has gone to now. And essentially what you use is different modes of transportation all linked in the same trip. So as an example, you might take a cab or a rideshare vehicle for the first mile of your trip, which is our first kilometer of your trip, so to speak, which is from your house to the rapid transit line on Pembina Highway.
Grant:You get on rapid transit, it takes you downtown or out to the university and you get off and you walk to your use active transportation, you use the curbs to walk to your place of business. At the end of the day, you do the opposite. You walk to the transit station, you get on bus rapid transit, you take it out back to South Winnipeg, and then you take a taxi, an Uber, a Lyft, whatever you're going to take and you get home. So it really becomes using multiple links to, you know, complete your transportation and not once have you even started your own car. And so you get to a point in a multimodal transportation where you're able to go onto an app and book all of this through one place, whether that's a city app, whether that's a company app or whatever.
Grant:But you see exactly what options are available to you. You know, what's what bus station you'd have to go to, what route, how much it's gonna cost, and you pay all through that one app. So it's just a seamless transportation network, that becomes and people end up moving around and they're able to do it as seamlessly as possible and as efficiently as possible with as much choice as possible.
Tamara:Behind the scenes here, you, your team have really been involved from the ground floor. Let's go back to where it all started. Earlier you mentioned, you know, was 2018. That's when the province dissolved the taxicab board and suddenly, you know, here at the city of Winnipeg, we had to build a new system from scratch. How did that come together so quickly, Grant?
Grant:Well, we had a change of government about a year and a half before and the province was looking for twofold: one ways to bring in rideshare service into Manitoba. It hadn't really been here at all in any way, shape or form. And secondly, they were looking to save costs. Taxi cab board became low hanging fruit. It had been in place for about seventy years.
Grant:And really, while it was a provincial government agency, it really only focused on the city of Winnipeg. And so they notified the city of Winnipeg but also the other municipalities in Manitoba that they were going to dissolve the taxicab board and pass legislation that would get rid of the Taxicab Act and create what's called the Local Vehicle for Hire Act, which basically says that transportation of vehicles holding 11 or less passengers or 11 or less seat belts kind of thing, including drivers, would be transferred to the municipalities in Manitoba. They could set up their own bylaws. But the city of Winnipeg had to have a bylaw. We were basically mandated through legislation.
Grant:That happened in early twenty seventeen. So the city really started in earnest that summer working on that And had to pull together, cobble together a full bylaw with rules and regulations and transferability from what existed. Know, there was quite a working group pulled together with a consulting firm. And basically the city, you know, by December had a workable bylaw that was passed by council, as well as the creation of a department and some policies and stuff, at least on paper. What happened is this mid to late December twenty seventeen, Council passed that bylaw in the administrative report and from there the creation of the department started.
Grant:I had been on the project team as controller at the parking authority. And when it was decided, when council passed that and that affirmed that it was coming to the parking authority as a new division, I had to start in earnest creating job descriptions, positions, going through all the processes that Citi has to have positions created and then start hiring. And so I basically built a team from the ground up starting mid December to be ready for 03/01/2018. On top of all the HR side and that, we also had to create licenses, we had to create applications, we had to create an entire department and an entire industry administratively from the ground up so that taxis could continue to operate March 1 because their provincial licenses were set to expire. It's not often in government that you get an opportunity to do something from the ground up.
Grant:There's departments that have been in place for, you know, a hundred years kind of thing. And so it was kind of a really cool thing to be there. But was the first year was a challenge. It was a massive learning curve and, you know, navigating a lot of challenges. So I won't say we're in steady state and that may sound funny seven years later, but this is an ever evolving industry and it's one that requires ongoing tweaking, ongoing adjusting in order to stay ahead of the curve of things that are coming.
Natalie:Well, tell us more about that. Share maybe some of your biggest challenges right now.
Grant:I think some of the biggest challenges are, know, there's a lot of balance. There's a lot of balance that's required in this, in my role where we're trying to balance the needs of passengers and ensuring that they get transportation, they're providing good customer service and that they're provided safe transportation. But also the needs of the industry. We want a thriving, balanced, diverse industry so that people have choice, there's competition, but that drivers are safe. You know, drivers are they're family people.
Grant:They have mothers and fathers, they have kids, they have wives and they wanna get home. They want to get home at the end of the night and it can be a dangerous position at sometimes. But then we also have the political side. So you're balancing the needs of what councillors, what the city needs from a political standpoint, what the industry is asking for. It's hard to satisfy everybody.
Grant:It's really big challenge. We try to find a lot of that middle ground. It's like always having a Venn diagram where you're trying to find that sweet spot of how things are going to impact everybody. Some of the other big challenges, there's a lot of uncertainty moving forward. The world is changing at a rapid pace.
Grant:Technology is changing at a rapid pace. So it's really on us to stay ahead of it because, and I say that I'm a big believer that if we can stay ahead of it and understand what's coming, can help the industry understand it. Plus we don't get into a situation where a industry service provider rolls something out or brings something into the market that we're not ready for from a regulatory standpoint or we're not prepared for. And then we get caught by it and we don't have a way to respond when something goes wrong. So it's really important that we are talking to our colleagues across the country and across the world really.
Grant:We're part of an international group of regulators where we have this connection built in. There are cities who are ahead of us on the curve by quite a bit. Cities like New York and San Francisco, even, you know, Calgary is a few years ahead of us. And so we're able to look to them and see what challenges they've experienced and then adjust so we don't either face those or so that we're ready for them when they do come in. And really, it's about building trust across the industry.
Grant:We try to make decisions in vehicle for hire based on data, based on information, and really do our research before we roll something out. And that really, while you're not going to satisfy everybody, it brings more trust to that decision making process. We also try to work as collaboratively as possible. You don't really like to take the regulator hardline in the sand approach. Really like to work with our industry partners.
Grant:In a lot of cases, they know more than we do about some stuff. And so we can build on their knowledge base and you know help us by building on our knowledge base and then we can kind of come to a solution that's workable.
Tamara:So Grant, let's talk safety. Because at the end of the day, we're still talking about putting strangers together in a small space. How has Winnipeg responded to these risks? Are we doing anything different or unique here?
Grant:Well there's a few things. One is that all taxis in Winnipeg have mandatory in vehicle cameras. These cameras are the camera and kind of the camera process is managed by the city. We approve what models of cameras and their capabilities through a relatively rigorous testing process and everything. And one thing that people really need to know about the cameras is that they record both high quality audio and video and that the footage and the recordings are managed by the city and controlled by the city.
Grant:The dispatch companies, the drivers, the vehicle owners have no real access to that footage. So you can be assured that if something is recorded on the camera, we're able to access it. And only our enforcement team at Vehicle for Hire and those, Winnipeg Police Service have access. They have the their special code software that you need to have to download that software or those recordings. And so, that's a really important feature.
Grant:That camera footage has been instrumental on a number of occasions of both proving and disproving complaints. And when I say disproving, I mean sometimes people provide information in a complaint that may or may not be completely accurate or situations don't happen the way people are recall them when they come time. And so it's been really helpful in supporting the drivers also and they do appreciate that. Vehicle for hire in Winnipeg, we have a mobile enforcement team. They are out and about.
Grant:They work multiple shifts throughout the day. They work into the evening and on weekends. So so they are available. They go to all the locations in the city where vehicles for hire would frequent, like the Canna Life Center, Concert Hall, the casinos, the malls, you name it. If people are gathering and vehicles for hires may be present, they go there.
Grant:They also drive around and they're scanning the roads, looking for situations, looking for incidents or things like that. Part of their job is to do vehicle inspections to ensure vehicles are safe and they're meeting the standards. And there's a requirement in Winnipeg that all vehicles for hire are have at least one safety check through an MPI certified garage each year. Drivers are background checked. All drivers on a yearly basis, whether they're driving for Uber or driving for Duffy's Taxi or driving a limo, to provide a up to date criminal record check, a child abuse registry check, and a Manitoba driver's abstract.
Grant:And those are checked against stringent guidelines for being a driver in the bylaw. Complaints are accepted through three eleven. Other times we'll have complaints sent to us through trusted third parties where people are willing to, you know, go in and they don't feel comfortable talking to 311 or whatever, but they have a, you know, a community member, maybe it's a pastor, maybe it's an advisor or a counselor or something like that. And they'll provide that information and then pass it along. We investigate complaints.
Grant:We have the ability to issue financial fines. We have the ability to hold hearings, disciplinary hearings or license review hearings should that be required. And you know, we really put a strong emphasis on drivers being professionals and acting in a professional capacity and that they take it seriously. This is a career for a lot of people and they should, you know, provide good customer service. And that's, you know, I always say a safe passenger is a safe driver and a safe driver is a safe passenger.
Grant:And so there's that when there's that level of mutual respect between a passenger and a driver, each understanding their role in the industry, then you're gonna see safety be paramount for everybody.
Natalie:And in that, you know, data set you're talking about earlier, are the numbers showing? Are these changes working? Are rides getting safer?
Grant:I would say yes. And you know, while I firmly believe that one issue is one too many, that we should be striving for zero issues, I'm also realistic that that's simply not going to be the case. There's always going to be reasons that things come up. We've seen a decrease in serious incidents and I think that has a lot to do with the companies being very their attitude towards things has changed dramatically and they're really holding their drivers to a higher standard these days. And that's probably a shift that's happened in the last four or five years.
Grant:So I really wanna give them a lot of credit for that. As well, I think the fact that there's high quality audio and video, people know they're being recorded. They're less likely to do stuff. They're less likely to say something because they know it's gonna be captured on video. And as well, people are more willing to file a complaint.
Grant:Even if it goes nowhere, people are more willing to file a complaint. But I think that the when you look at the absolute magnitude of the number of trips going back to that 10,300,000 and the number of complaints we have and I believe in 2024, we had about less than a 100 official complaints. A 100 complaints on 10,300,000 trips and that number I just want to you know I recognize that the 100 complaints is probably a little underreported. There's complaints that don't get reported to us. There's also complaints that go directly to the companies, more around customer service, cleanliness of vehicles, things like that.
Grant:Things that the bylaw doesn't necessarily cover but are better handled at the company level. But realistically, when you look at it and say a 100 complaints on 10,300,000 trips, it's a relatively safe network. It is a relatively safe way to get around.
Tamara:And your team's always looking at ways to really help people whether they're operators or passengers. There's two very human centered initiatives that have come from your group. Tell us about Winnipeg WAVE. Now that's WAV, the Wheelchair Accessible Vehicle Program. What is it and how is it really changing the way people with disabilities move around the city?
Grant:So Winnipeg WAVE is a widely known acronym as you said Wheelchair Accessible Vehicle. It is a multi component program. When the city took over in 2018, we did consultations through the industry with community in that. And one of the communities that was very vocal about their experience with vehicles for hire at the time was the accessible community. They said that, you know, there was a lack of capacity, there were a lack of vans on the road and they would often wait between sixty and ninety minutes or longer for a ride.
Grant:Now the average standard vehicle passenger would probably wait fifteen to twenty minutes most of the time. And so when we're looking at that, that is a big gap. That is a big gap. And so we looked at ways to change that, to improve that. One of the ways was to issue more licenses.
Grant:We, in December 2018, we issued 60 more van licenses and we went from 70 vans in the city to 130 overnight essentially, which basically doubled capacity, made it far more available. And there's a big difference in WAVE, in wheelchair accessible taxi or rideshare service, than there is in Transit Plus. Transit Plus tends to be pre booked. You have to know ahead of time, you have to get your ride booked and that whereas a vehicle for hire service, accessible service is on demand. You can pick up the phone when you're at your doctor's appointment or when the Jets game ends and a vehicle will come.
Grant:So we started studying other ways to improve the service. We saw that the capacity change made a difference, but it wasn't hitting all the high notes. And so we looked at what other cities were doing and specifically what was happening in Chicago had this type of service for about twenty years now. Calgary started this about a year and a half before us. And so what it is, is it is a centralized dispatch system.
Grant:One of the big problems before is accessible service was very fragmented throughout the city. There was about nine or 10 companies who had vans and a lot of them only had a few vans available to them. And so if you weren't able to get a ride with one company, you called the next company and the next company and the next company. And at some point after calling three or four companies, you just give up and you're very frustrated. It's, I mean, you know, we all do this, right?
Grant:If you call one company and you're looking for, you know, a certain brand of refrigerator or something, and they don't have it, and you call the next company and they don't have it, at some point you get really frustrated and you either change what you're doing or you go, you know, figure something else out. So And that's what was happening. The accessible community started to get left out of things and their quality of life was beginning to get diminished. And so we looked at that and we said, you know, what's working in Chicago and why is that working? Why are there trips being taken?
Grant:Why is the number increased? Why is it starting to see a change in Calgary? And the reason for that was we created a single access point for people to get service. And so you call a single phone number a or go online and go to a single website or an app, and that connects you with the closest, accessible vehicle for hire regardless of what company it is. And so of that, we have about, about 75 to 80 of the available accessible vans on the system, on the network.
Grant:They operate at different times, they're operating in different areas of the city. But if you look for that ride, now you're instead of maybe having to call, you know, one company and then move to the next, you're just gonna get the next closest. And generally people don't care because the cost is the same everywhere.
Tamara:They want to get from point A to point B.
Grant:They want to get from point A to point B. It's easier to book. There are shorter wait times. We have seen wait times drop from that 90 to an hour or ninety to a hundred and twenty minutes down to twenty minutes, 93, 94% of the time. So there are gonna be times recognizing that, you know, we have bad weather at times, that we have construction and that slows transportation down.
Grant:But when we can deliver a twenty minute service 94% of the time, we're hitting that sweet spot. Now we've built an equitable system that works. There's increased driver participation and the reliability is way higher. The system, we do regular checks of the passengers in Winnipeg Wave and, they can also passengers can also provide feedback through the app or text based if they book online. And about 92, 93% of the time, drivers in the system are getting four and five star ratings.
Grant:So we're seeing also high customer satisfaction coming out of the system as well. There's better coordination, better customer service. The other part to that is that drivers and vehicle owners are paid incentives on the trips and on metrics that they have to hit deliver and deliver on customer service. The van owners get paid incentives to help offset the higher cost of owning a van, owning and operating a van versus a car. And the drivers get paid an incentive to provide higher level of customer service to offset the slightly additional time it may take to load or unload a wheelchair.
Grant:And so that's just a reinvestment in the industry, but it's a reinvestment in Winnipegers. These are Winnipegers who are providing that service and getting those dollars. It supplements their income. And now you've got drivers who don't have to work fourteen, sixteen hours a day to make a living. They're now working, you know, eight to ten to maybe twelve because they're getting some additional incentives that help them.
Grant:And on top of that, the best part about this entire program is it's completely self funded through the network. We use a surcharge that we collect, that the city collects on trips, that pays for it. And there's no taxpayer dollars, there's nothing. And this is now it's been turned into a permanent program by council in 2024 on an ongoing basis.
Natalie:That's great. Another new program introduced by your team has been that every driver, that includes those who drive for Uber or Lyft, takes cultural competency training. Tell us about that.
Grant:This kind of goes to the heart of safety. Winnipeg has the biggest urban indigenous population in Canada and there's a long standing, not necessarily always the best relationship between indigenous people and the vehicle for hire industry in Winnipeg for a number of reasons. But what we did is we sat down and in line with the Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls, the Calls for Justice, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, we worked with the Indigenous Relations Division in Winnipeg at the City of Winnipeg here to determine what could be done. What in alignment with the MMIG 2S plus calls for justice around transportation and public transportation. What needed to be done?
Grant:So we went through an extensive consultation process that involved the indigenous community, survivors and families, newcomer and racialized people's community as well as the industry. And one thing that percolated to the top in all those discussions was education. People wanted more education. They felt that more education would be beneficial and better understanding. And so with that, Vehicle for Hire funded it and the Indigenous Relations Division partnered with indigenous community members to create what's known as the building cultural competency training.
Grant:It's something we're really proud of. That teaches it's completely built by the indigenous community. All the courses are instructed and led by the indigenous community. And the program is provided free to all drivers. And really what it does is it teaches, you know, some of the history of Canada, why we got to this point in some of the decisions that you know other previous governments have made and things that have happened.
Grant:But then it also talks about the relationship between drivers being in that closed space and how people react. What are some of those triggers that cause that and trying to remove those triggers, trying to make people understand better what those really are. It's funded again, it's you know, in providing that we have a surcharge that we use to fund the content, fund the instructors so that we can provide it free to the drivers. And that's really important because, you know, the drivers have to take time out of their day to go and attend this. So, you know, potentially they either have to take a day off or part of a day off or they have to do it on a day off that they have.
Grant:And, you know, it just felt better that we're able to provide that for free. And like I said, now in 2020 you know, kinda 2025, it became mandatory for all drivers to take it. Prior to that, we saw a big uptake by just taxi drivers and they really got behind it. They recognized that they could be leaders in this area and learning there. And so they really got behind it.
Grant:And now we're seeing a higher uptake on the rideshare side also where more and more drivers. So we're gonna have, at some point, we're gonna have, you know, five to 6,000 more people who have gone through cultural competency training where they've given been given a foundation, you know, about the relationship with indigenous people in Winnipeg and in Canada. And you know, some of the feedback we've gotten from drivers has been kind of really amazing that they'll come to the end of this and they'll say, know, now I can have that conversation with my kids who are coming home from school and talking about this. And now I can actually participate in that. I know a little bit more now.
Grant:So it's really good that way.
Tamara:And this has really received worldwide attention. Winnipeg was named the 2023 International Regulator of the Year. What did that mean to you and your team?
Grant:That was bestowed on us. We're part of the International Association of Transportation Regulators and known as IATR. And it's an industry group of cities, counties, states, provinces, countries in some cases of regulators, but also industry participants and other groups who are affected by the industry. Companies who make taxi meters, who make cameras, things like that. It's basically a giant industry group.
Grant:And every year they have a conference and we were named through you know our two of the major efforts, the building cultural competency training implementation and wheelchair Winnipeg wheelchair accessible vehicle program as the 20 '23 regulator of the year. I mean, can't express what having your peers and colleagues recognize you for the work you're doing and recognizing that the impact you're making in the community. The team in Vehicle for Hire is fantastic. They work really hard every day for a common goal. And really all everybody pulls in the same direction and we kind of get behind some of these programs and build consensus and really move that forward.
Grant:We're only the second city in Canada to ever receive this award. Montreal received it about eight or nine years ago now. And it puts us in the same class as cities like New York, London, England, Los Angeles, Chicago. So these are major cities around the world and here's little old Winnipeg who's been recognized for that same type of thing. Looking when they award this, they're looking at things like modernization of the industry, safety, inclusion, best practices.
Grant:And so when you're bringing all that to the table in programs, it just makes you feel really good about the impact you're making in both the industry but also the passengers.
Natalie:And it places Winnipeg as a bit of a leader. Understand there are other cities kind of reaching out and looking to take a page.
Grant:Absolutely. We've had a number of Canadian cities look at the building cultural competency training. Our colleagues in indigenous relations have presented on it at one of our regular Canadian regulators meetings. So it's out there. You know, we're all in Canada.
Grant:All have a lot of the same challenges, whether you're a big city or a small city. And so it's really about building on what other cities are doing and learning from them. Like I said at the beginning, we've got cities who are ahead of us on the curve and there are cities who are behind us on the curve of where things are at. And so we really value that. The WAVE program, I've done a number of presentations to other major cities on this.
Grant:I've talked to the city of Seattle and King County. I've spent quite a bit of time working with the District Of Columbia and Washington DC on looking at how why this is successful, the things that we've seen that have been beneficial but also maybe have needed to be tweaked and really, you know, a number of presentations. I've also presented at a number of the last few conferences on the Winnipeg Wave program and some of the innovative stuff that's happening in Winnipeg. And so we do have other cities looking at that and wanting to know more and being really interested in what's happening here.
Tamara:So what's next? You mentioned it's constantly evolving and we're trying to stay ahead of it. What does the future look like for vehicles for hire in Winnipeg?
Grant:We're always looking at ways to improve safety and accessibility. That's always something that's at the forefront and that's safety for passengers and safety for drivers. We've got a few upcoming campaigns that will be rolled out and we want to make decisions and look at ways to keep the industry sustainable for drivers and affordable for passengers, Recognizing that the world is moving to that multimodal transportation network and we really want to see those build those links with public transportation so that people really have that choice. Looking at ways to integrate vehicle for hire service into potentially government fleets, other type of fleet networks. And always there's things like autonomous vehicles that are being piloted out in other cities and looking at where they're coming from.
Grant:There's other ways of, you know, when some cities are piloting or trying out helicopter taxis.
Tamara:Sorry. Pause right there.
Natalie:Yeah.
Grant:Major cities like, you know, massive ones with major infrastructure or transportation network problems because of congestion and stuff, sheer population. Cities like LA and New York and that are looking at and using right now or trying out helicopter taxis. So you would be able to move from the Empire State Building, say land on the top or whatever to certain office buildings downtown or from and there's a little bit happening right now where you're able to move in certain cities from one airport to the other via a taxi. So you might be able to move from or via helicopter taxi. So you might be able to move from JFK to LaGuardia, where that might be a two hour drive.
Grant:Now it's a twenty minute, you know, helicopter ride. Are we there yet? No. Nobody in Canada is really doing this stuff. But there are autonomous vehicle.
Grant:There is autonomous vehicle work being done in Canada. Not necessarily on the taxi side, but on other types of vehicles. I can say personally, I have been in an autonomous taxi at the at the IATR conference in 2023, which is in Scottsdale, Arizona. And I was able to take a Waymo out for dinner one night. And it was quite the experience.
Tamara:Elaborate.
Grant:It well, we got in and I was I was with my colleague from Saskatoon. We didn't do our seat belts out right away. And the vehicle started to pull away from the curb and it kept reminding us passengers have to have their seat belts done up. And it stopped and pulled over and said, do up your seat belts or exit the vehicle. And so we did up our seat belts and the ride continued.
Grant:We experienced left turns. We experienced right turns. We experienced, police cars passing us and it's got a readout screen and on the screen it said emergency vehicles approaching, react to that. And so we saw them go by on our right, the vehicle moved down, we saw it merge, we saw it allow vehicles merge into the lanes. And so it was just a really cool experience and it really dispelled some of those concerns that I had around autonomous vehicles.
Grant:Granted, they've got a little bit of ways to go figuring out because it uses radar and lidar and cameras. They've got work to do around how it handles snowbanks and curbs that are obstructed and slippery roads and things like that. That testing is happening. There are there is testing going on with autonomous vehicles in, some northern communities like Finland and that, where they can test. But, you know, Scottsdale is a really good example because they got three hundred and thirty days of sunshine a year.
Grant:But that's being rolled out across The United States. There's other cities. New York has them now. Austin, Texas, Los Angeles. So so it's coming.
Grant:It's coming somewhere down the line, and we're seeing it here with Tesla already having self driving mode. It's just a case of moving into that next step and having the proper again, going back to that regulation and what's coming for the future, that's where we're trying to stay ahead of the curve and be in a position so that it doesn't get here before we're ready for it.
Natalie:Finally, for the listener, the person who is maybe calling a cab or opening the app to to call their ride, what what do you want them to think about? What do you want them to know about the vehicle for hire team that maybe they hadn't thought about before?
Grant:They should have an expectation that they're gonna have a safe ride. That's the starting point. And to remind passengers that a vehicle for hire is the workplace of the driver. And they're entitled to respect and a safe trip also. Love for people to know that there's a lot of work that goes on behind the scenes on the regulatory side, on the enforcement side to ensure that trips are fair, drivers are background checked, companies are held to standards in account and that it's not just a rogue industry that is out there providing, you know, transportation service to exploit passengers.
Grant:It's one that, you know, Winnipeggers really a lot of Winnipeggers provide service in the industry. They take pride in the service they provide. And these are community members who live and work here. There's a commitment to fairness, safety and service. If somebody does have an issue, you can call 311 and get in touch with them through the website.
Grant:That's all logged And the reason we use 311 is so that you get a a number that could be tracked. And then that comes through to the vehicle for hire office and and we'll get in touch. We'll contact the complainant, the complaint, and look into the complaint and and determine an outcome. And the big thing is if you have ideas or suggestions, we're always open to feedback and looking at adopting things to the customer needs and the community and making changes to regulation. We have a of ways to do that and it can be done through 311, but also a number of ways to reach out or add email addresses.
Natalie:This is our last question. It's something we do ask everyone, and we want you to share something about Winnipeg that you wish everyone knew.
Grant:Sure. I I'm a big supporter of Winnipeg. Winnipeg is a very underrated city and people outsiders, all they really see is what they the impression they get in the news or that it's cold here. It's dark and gray during the winter, whatever. What they're missing is the heart of the city.
Grant:What really makes this tick? Winnipeg is the biggest small city in the world. Everybody knows everybody else. Everybody's related in some way, shape, or form. And in the way of six degrees of separation, it's more like three degrees of separation in Winnipeg.
Grant:We have winning sports teams who are supported. We have great culture. We have a diverse, community who really comes out and shows up to events and we have fantastic restaurants and the food scene here is amazing. People are missing out if they're skipping Winnipeg and I think it's just a place that people really need to show up and, come visit and experience for themselves because once you have, you'll never want to, leave.
Natalie:It's wonderful. Well, thank you so much for for taking us on this ride. Our next episode brings us into 2026. It's a
Tamara:big year for us here at the city. We're putting on the next general election. It's actually the single largest one day initiative that we do here at the city, and we're talking to the guy who's overseeing it all. Yeah. If you have
Natalie:any questions for Sherwood or or really anything you hear on the podcast, we'd love to hear from you. Send us an email at city-podcast@Winnipeg.ca, and, have a happy New Year.
